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A level playing field?

September 23rd 2009 by Patrick Curry

It doesn’t take much to wind up the average football fan these days. The average football fan (a long suffering male who enjoys beer and has delusions of grandeur for his team of overpaid primadonnas) is drawn to controversial issues like a moth to the proverbial flame. There is little doubt then that the events of the weekend past will have left a lot of fans more than a little wound up.

First off Old Trafford. Following on from Arsene Wenger’s quite reasonable assessment of the ‘Old Traffordish’ penalty given against his side two weeks ago, there was the reappearance of OTT. No, not ‘Over The Top’ but in fact ‘Old Trafford Time’. Quite simply it requires officials to add on as much time as needed for United to score a winner. Occasionally it gets ignored so ‘shock’ results such as happened at Burnley recently lend an air of legitimacy to ‘the greatest league in the world’. However, over a season it crops up a few times and it also extends to awarding/denying non-existent/tied-on penalties to United/visiting teams.

Those who saw the game will know what went on. Mark Hughes quite rightly questioned where the extra time came from. While Lineker and Co attempted to gloss it over on MOTD 2, many fans were left wondering how 90+4 became 90+6. Substitutions account for 30 seconds extra and Carrick came on for Anderson during injury time. That adds an additional 30 seconds extra. The time it took Manchester City to celebrate their 90th minute equaliser however should not have been added. If that were the case then there would have 4 added minutes at Upton Park prior to half time to allow for goal celebrations in the first half. And that most certainly did not happen.

The fact that United outplayed City for almost the entire 2nd half is inconsequential. Rio Ferdinand made a schoolboy error which was duly punished and Ferguson was facing points dropped followed by a lot of egg on his face after his pre-match sleights at City. But that reckoned without OTT and the special interpretation of refs in United games. Law 7 of the referee’s rules states that added on time (officially ‘Allowance for time lost’) can be allowed for substitutions, injuries and treatment, time wasting and ‘any other cause’. Crucially though it also states that allowance for time lost is ‘at the discretion of the official’. Whether that discretion is entirely impartial is now very much open to debate.

Not all referees lack the ability to be punctual though. Carlton Cole had a perfectly good goal struck off a couple of weeks ago because Alan Wiley blew for half time as he was striking the ball and not after it entered the net. That was on the stroke of half time. He didn’t allow one second more to elapse or the phase of play to be concluded before he whistled for halftime thereby ruling out a perfectly good goal. But that was West Ham and that was at Wigan. And they aren’t ‘big’ clubs so who really cares?

So on to Stamford Bridge and the other big controversy of the weekend. Spurs were a goal down. King had just hobbled off. They were not, however, out of the game. Lennon dinked a ball into Defoe which was cleverly turned on to Keane who raced toward goal. As he shaped to pull the trigger his heel was clipped by Carvalho. All eyes turned to Webb who steadfastly stonewalled all appeals and waved play on. But Keane, livid at the injustice, raced after Webb imploring him to book him. After all if it wasn’t a penalty then it must have been a dive. And of course if it was a dive then it was booking. But Webb opted to do nothing at all and predictably Chelsea went on to punish the exasperated and increasingly threadbare Spurs defence. It’s not to say that Spurs would’ve drawn or even gone on to win the game, but goals do change games and momentum is a strange thing. But of course it wouldn’t do for the Premier League hierarchy to be upset. So Chelsea and Man Utd exit the weekend in first and 2nd, Spurs are back where they should be, out of the top 4, while Ferguson gets to classlessly mock City and balance is restored.

It is not as if these events are unique though. United’s first title under Ferguson was secured in dubious circumstances when a 96th minute Steve Bruce header finally broke Sheffield Wednesday back in 1994. Of course then it was a novelty and no-one could guess it would become a recurring theme. However, a 95th Carlos Tevez goal rescued a point at Tottenham two seasons ago proving that OTT is not just limited to Old Trafford. Just last season Spurs were 2-0 and effectively cruising at Old Trafford before a hilariously bad penalty was awarded against them. They folded horribly afterwards but the penalty was the catalyst United needed and they got. The ref that day? None other than that bastian of impartiality Howard Webb. And then of course there was an incident involving a Pedro Mendes shot that may or may not have crossed the line but that’s a whole other matter.

If these things happen once or twice they can just about be written off as freakish mistakes by incompetent morons. However, the regularity with which they occur (and the examples cited above are merely the tip of the iceberg – makes me think otherwise. I think everyone with an ounce of knowledge about football recognises that the game is a bit bent towards the big sides, either intentionally or simply through spineless inadequacy, but this weekend saw the most blatant examples of it to date and it makes me question whether it’s even worth watching at all.

Tags: Alex Ferguson, champions, howard webb, Manchester United, Old Trafford, top 4

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Dan Church Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
What a load of bollocks…….id be interested to find out who My Curry supports. Ill bet you £100 its not one of the big 4….

once again, everyone loves to attack the big boys for having what would appear to be good fortune come there way….has it never occured to anyone that perhaps United score so many late late goals is because they never give up ?? If the game was between Hull and Blackburn say, the free kick that Rooney had that lead to Owens goal would have been rolled sideways and possession kept to secure a point which is good enough for mid table teams, but the fact that United dared to attack, dared to throw everyone forwards and hope it paid off is a criminal sin apparently. The time added on ?? well i dont hear anyone questioning where the original 4 minutes came from which without any injuries in the game seems quite lengthy in itself, its just there, no one would have said a word if this had finished 3-2 to united without bellamys equalizer and owens winner and the game had finished at 90+4 mins. its purely jealousy that the bigger teams seem to get breaks that smaller teams do not. its called commitment and dedication to the cause. The FA isnt scared of United, or Liverpool or Chelsea or Arsenal, and the very suggestion that the FA bends over to accomodate these teams is laughable. No player is bigger than a club, and no club is bigger than the FA !!!!!!!!
Matt Quinn Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
I dont understand the question of the added time. Its quite simple to me. Bellamy scored on the 90th minute. You cant honestly suggest that celebration time shouldnt be accounted for. So, you want the 4th official to stick up his board showing 4mins added time- but to ignore the fact that a goal has been scored and the ball has not actually been in play for nearly a minute?????? So- really there are only 3mins added time instead. What if Man City had dragged it out and celebrated for 2 or 3 mins or a couple of fans ran on the pitch for the entire 4mins… would you blow up then or add the wasted time?

Remember- added time is to account for periods when there is no active play. A substition is 30 extra seconds (carrick) and after a goal, the clock should stop until kick-off. Thats what the ref did at Old Trafford. Fair and Square.
Nev Napier Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
The so called big four get the breaks, fact. The only people to deny that fact are fans of these teams. More significantly, Utd get the bulk of it, fact. We have now learned to laugh when the camera focuses on Ferguson pensively checking his specially constructed watch when Utd are a single goal up and somewhat under the cosh. The reason being we are resigned to fact that they will get what they need and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Managers such as Mark Hughes, Steve Bruce etc have no leg to stand on when it is them on the other end of such injustice, they benefited untold times when they were players under Ferguson. Credit to Hughes, he did recognise that, so why not pipe down and just except it? The idea that only the so called big four remain committed to the final whistle I find baffling though (Dan Church), as if all the rest just give up! They battle just as hard, they just don’t get umpteen minutes of mystery injury time added on and dubious penalty decisions. That way they can be kept in their place. I’ve come to expect such smugness from fans of the so called top four, it’s just so easy when you get the breaks.
Phil Gale Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I believe there is some bias towards to the big clubs whether it’s deliberate or naturalised I’m not 100% sure. However, can you imagine if the scenario at Upton Park, when Carton Cole was interrupted by the referee during his last second goal bound shot replicated itself at Old Trafford? I’m sure that’s a story we would never hear the end of.
Dan Church Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Nev, im not suggesting the rest just give up, im suggesting to mid table teams a point is a resonable return for their afternoons work, so they dont push forwards in stoppage time looking for a winner in fear of conceding a breakaway goal and losing. whereas for the teams pushing for the title, every point is vital and a draw against anyone other than a fellow contender is points dropped so they continue to push until the final whistle…..how many times have chelsea scored in the last minute this season. if you looked at the stats over the course of the premiership, ill be happy to bet that the team who scored the most goals in the last 5 minutes of a game went on to win the title or narrowly second…its what great teams are made of.
Dan Church Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
and as for the injury time……i recall games this season between non top flight teams where there have been 7+ added minutes. in fact a lot of games have 4+ minutes but because there not big games and decisive goals arnt scored in that time then its not mentioned…
Dean Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 2:42 pm
dan, if you think there is no bias towards the bigger teams, you are very deluded my friend.

From you comments, i’m guessing you support man u. Even if you don’t, Patrick has given several examples of why this is true. I totally agree with you when you say certain other clubs might be happy with a point but man u wanted to push on and get the win through skill and determination. But sunday at old trafford was not one of these occasions. Like Patrick said, if he is going to add on extra time for goal celebrations, you have to do that with each goal scored. I would have thought a minute was the norm for goal celebrations in such a big game. But like patrick said, at west ham in the first half, 4 minutes of extra time was not played.

The bigger teams get favoured time and time again. Maybe not on purpose, but referees are certainly scared of the backlash if they were to give a questionable decision or two at the big stadiums. In short, they bottle it. Where as replace carlton cole at wigan with wayne rooney and anyone, and you’ve got a goal.

And don’t make me laugh by saying no one is bigger than the F.A! When have the F.A ever really come down on a big side, bar someone kicking the shit out of a fan? John Terry is constantly up to no good, yet nothing happens. I do believe that there was a pitch invasion at old trafford on sunday, yet i don’t see anyone talking about docking points.

The way football is set-up at the moment is fundementally biased anyway. The top 4 will continue to get more and more cash each season, thus enabling them to attract bigger and better players. Sadly it takes someone with unlimited wealth to try and buy a team to break this cycle. What it needs is a spurs or a villa to break the monotony and break up this bloody big 4 shit, because until it does, OTT will always exist.
Nev Napier Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Are you a Holocaust denier Dan? I sense on your behalf a refusal to accept cold, hard facts when they are staring you in the face. Utd have set a precedent in the area of time added on and dubious decisions, and you wonder why people are asking questions. There is no smoke without fire. It amuses me how new excuses are concocted in an attempt to dowse the flames, time added on for goal celebration I have simply never heard before. It’s as if it’s City’s fault, they are trying blame City for having the audacity not only to score, but to celebrate it!

Suggesting that a point at Old Trafford is acceptable for anyone outside the top four smacks of arrogance. As if no one else has anything to play for, that the only games of relevance are those of the top four. It’s patronising to suggest that any other team will settle for a plucky point.

Large chunks of injury time are added on every week in games all over the world for various different reasons, a player breaks his leg, there is a pitch invasion, a parachutist lands in the centre circle, but there is no constant. With Utd it happens every season and especially at Old Trafford, there is far too much at stake to let a plucky Europa League wannabe crash the party.
dexylongshot Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Poor old Carlton, your right, if Owen had been about to shoot it in the onion bag like Cole and the ref blew, Fergie would have done a Bellamy and chinned someone (although he would get away with it too). I think the incident at West Ham got about 2 20 words in most of the tabloids.

How many fans ran onto the pitch on Sunday, hardly anything has been mentioned about that
(apart from Bellamys sparring partner).

The big 4 teams do seem to be favoured at times.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 6:05 pm
I still dont understand! Are people seriously saying that extra time shouldnt be added for a goal and the celebrations?

So- by that reasoning, if the ref signals 4mins added time and a team scores after 3mins, then celebrate for 1min- the ref should blow up then???? Youre just wrong- Nev, Dean and Patrick.

I think you lot are mad. Im with Dan Church… there was no issue with the timings on sunday. Get over it…. and i support Aston Villa before you ask.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Ps. I also agree with Dan Church about the importance of attacking. The Carlton Cole example aside, refs very rarely blow up when the ball is in or around the penalty area… therefore if the big 4 are attacking relentlessly, there is less opportunity for the ref to blow up… precisely because they want to avoid a carlton cole incident (which was very unfortunate) Lower teams dont attack as much and therefore it may be easier to blow up on time.
Patrick Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 10:08 pm
What’s being said is not that stoppages shouldn’t be taken into account and time added for those (and within reason this could just about include goal celebrations) but that like it or not bigger teams, particularly Man Utd, are favoured whether through dodgy penalties being given (Carrick last season) to unexplainable time being added (City last weekend). 94 mintues was on the board yet the goal was scored on 96. City didn’t celebrate for 2 minutes so the only explanation (taking into account the 30 that was added for the Carrick sub) is that the extra time was added ‘at the referee’s discretion’ as Law 7 states. And that discretion was probably swayed by the fact he was reffing at Old Trafford. And if Matt and Dan think that’s completely far fetched just look at what happened in Italy with Calciopoli. Juve had people influencing refs for years. I doubt that Real are squeaky clean, especially judging by their behaviour in the transfer market. The issue is that refs are intimidated by bigger clubs and decisions go in their favours time and time again. This is not plainly due to attacking football as Blackburn were attacking when Pedersen was denied a tied on penalty at OT a few seasons back. It happens at both ends of the pitch. If you fail to see it that’s your perogative but it does go on.
Dean Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 10:31 pm
matt,

I don’t think anyone is denying that the ref said he added time for goal celebrations (which incidentally was timed at 56 seconds. Add that to the 30 gives you 1 min 56 seconds. Owen’s goal came after 1 min 57 seconds. Hence the argument why wasn’t the whistle blown when it should have been, ala carlton cole?) but more so, why did the referee deem it necessary to add the amount of time when he did when referees do not do the same for all goals? Ok, he might have found bellamy’s celebration over the top. So why then, simply just add the time that he deemed over the top. Say, a normal goal celebration is 30 seconds, so he can add another 30 seconds on top of that? This point has been made several times, but why wasn’t there at least 3 mins of extra time at upton park on saturday where there were 4 goals and 2 injuries in the first half alone?

Answer me that, matt.
Iain Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 7:54 am
This blog is amazing. I never realised there were so many things going on behind the scenes. Someone ought to call the FBI.

Bigger clubs get a bit of bias, yes. Do they cheat? No. Do referees cheat? Hopefully not. Are they prone to human error? Yes. If all the refs were wonderfully consistent, we would be bored with nothing to talk about. The arguments put for and against here are far too reliant on specifics. It’s in danger of getting a bit silly.

If the big 4 get all the luck, how do you explain the 4-4 game between Liverpool and Arsenal last season? Or is that a grey area? Is that the twilight zone? Some kind of Kaos theory?

People need to chill out and enjoy watching their clubs play football.

p.s. I support Arsenal. I am part of the conspiracy.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 9:49 am
I love the conspiracy theories. Refs give dodgy penalties to smaller teams too. Villa have had some terrible decisions given to them over the last season or two. Incidentally, we have been given more penalties (and dodgy ones) since weve become a more successful team.

Conspiracy theory??? Or could it be, SHOCK!, that we have been attacking more and spending more time in the opponents penalty area??? Therefore increasing our chances of a penalty (dodgy or otherwise)

As Iain says- Refs are human and make mistakes. At all levels. The fact is that Man United at Old Trafford will spend vast amounts of the game in or around their opponents area… thus, increasing the opportunity for a penalty to be given.

Most of the smaller teams may get into a penalty area once or twice a game— severely decreasing their chances of penalties given in their favour.

Of course Ref’s will be swayed by the fans screaming for a penalty…. but it has nothing to do with the top 4 bias or anything.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Ps. Dean- im not talking about Upton Park. Im talking about the added time at Old Trafford on sunday and to my mind, it was correct. I honestly dont see the problem.

I think refs would be more inclined to add time for a goal/celebration if that goal is in the added time itself. (ie Bellamys.) You simply cannot indicate 4mins added time and then blow up for for full time if a goal is scored after 3mins and the celebration is for 1min.

At Upton Park the goals were during the normal 45mins so probably got ignored slightly.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Pps. Dean- if the ref had added 6 extra minutes at Upton Park (like you want) and then Liverpool scored during those 6mins to give them a 3-2 advantage- would that have been big 4 bias?????

Maybe the Upton Park scenario is an example of small team bias. The ref tried his hardest to give West Ham a draw!!! Call the FA. The ref’s are cheating!!!
Nev Napier Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 10:00 am
If time is added on for goal celebrations, and Bellamy’s was timed at somewhere around the minute mark, why was there not a minimum of one minute added on for Owen’s goal celebration? If we’re being fair here.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Nev- someone timed this… so im only copying and pasting but…..

Bellamy scored and celebrates for a minute. Time left is 4 minutes. Out of the 4, a full minute is gone for the celebration and therefore the ref had to extend the time to compensate for it. The 30 seconds for the substitution takes the game till 95:30.

Now Owen scores at 95:28 and goes on to celebrate. The time left on the clock is 2 seconds. Now the City fans have a case if the ref had blown the whistle immediately after the goal but the ref decided to play the 2 seconds and make sure the promised 4 minutes is completed. Actually the ref played 14 extra seconds. United should be protesting for the referee awarding the extra 14 seconds to see if City could equalize. That is all.
Nev Napier Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 10:24 am
So, if Owen celebrated for approximately one minute (taking into account the mini pitch invasion/Gary Neville’s crowd taunting, for which both have gone unpunished) should that time not be added on? Taking the match up to around 96:30.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Nev- because there was only 2 seconds left of the allotted time. Therefore the ref stops the clock. Stop being the operative word… not adding time…. and then restarts its at the kick-off- with 2 seconds left.
Nev Napier Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:04 am
So you can add time on in one instance and stop the clock in another. It’s these kind of grey areas which leave most people confused. It’s these kind of instance that leave football open to corruption/ineptness.
Dan Church Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Matt Quinn Says:

September 23rd, 2009 at 6:05 pm
I still dont understand! Are people seriously saying that extra time shouldnt be added for a goal and the celebrations?

So- by that reasoning, if the ref signals 4mins added time and a team scores after 3mins, then celebrate for 1min- the ref should blow up then???? Youre just wrong- Nev, Dean and Patrick.

I think you lot are mad. Im with Dan Church… there was no issue with the timings on sunday. Get over it…. and i support Aston Villa before you ask.

Matt, i owe you a pint mate….cheers !!!
Matt Quinn Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Nev- i am referring to added time but im not saying to ADD a minute for Bellamys goal. I meant the ref STOPPED the clock for Bellamys celebrations (which were a minute) – this was why the added time was EFFECTIVELY increased (as the time on our TV screen carries on- like the sands of time invariably do)… then he also stopped the clock for Owens celebrations. Simple.
Nev Napier Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:22 am
The way I see things is that it’s almost impossible to break into the top four no thanks to bias/inept refereeing, but, there is hope. If we all had your outlook Matt we would not even have that, we’d all end up like Winston Smith at the end of 1984.

What’s the pint for, a pay off?!
Dan Church Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:29 am
PS Matt explained it perfectly 5 posts above. Cant see any grey area there at all and i would say that if it was my team or anyone elses.

And to cover earlier posts, im just sick and tired of every single time United or any of the big 4 score a late goal, that its all “Just because there United/Liv/Ars/Chelski…….it happens everywhere, it just doesnt make the headlines like it does with the bigger teams. The decisions happen because the teams earn the decisions, (a few dodgy pens which as said earlier, happen everywhere)

I didnt see any screaming the ref was a Bristol City fan earlier in the season against Palace, nor the ghost goal at Watford last season…….
Dan Church Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:30 am
and Nevs, the pints for being able to see reason and clearly extract facts from fantasy.
Nev Napier Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:48 am
I was just as disappointed with the Watford and Palace incidents as I was with the Utd, the difference being that they don’t get ten of them a season. The consistency with which Utd get the rub of the green is unparalleled. Do you get a set of blinkers when you renew your season ticket along with the commemorative Ferguson stop watch?
Darren Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:50 am
so I guess you are saying that the FA were to blame for Lasagna gate then? As they obviously didn’t little old Spurs gate crashing the top four.

It’s a top 4 for a reason, these clubs are consistent, in the face adversity they always triumph, how many times have they been written off? How many times do they rebuild their squads? They play to the final whistle. Losing isn’t an option, their managers are born winners. I’m opening up a completely different debate here but Spurs and Villa both had the chance to break it but totally blew it. Only Everton have managed to break the monopoly in recent years. Why? Because they have a brilliant manager!

Spurs have spent more then anyone in recent years, are they any closer to breaking it since Martin Jol? I’d say no. Harry is a good manager but he’s not great. If he was that great he would of managed a bigger club by now. My point? You need a world class manager to be successful and maybe break the top 4.
Iain Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Incidentally, the 30 seconds added for a sub thing is total BS. It’s the amount of time the ball isn’t in play that the clock gets stopped for. 30 seconds was initial guidance, and subsequently changed.

I agree with you Nev that there is hope for other clubs to break the big 4 stranglehold. However I don’t agree that bad refereeing is one of the major factors stopping it happen. I believe that it is because the big 4 are currently much better at playing football over 90 minutes (and however much added time blah blah blah) consistently.

I remember Arsenal being pants in the mid 90s, finishing mid table. THey became good by getting a good manager and good players, not by buying off refs and practicing the dark arts and skulduggery.

Trust me on this one. the teams at the top are the best at football.
Patrick Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Regarding the lasagne incident, it doesn’t take too much inspecting to see how dodgy that all was. At the time David Dein was both vice chairman of Arsenal and vice chairman of the F.A, a combination that is quite clearly a massive conflict of interests. Arsenal had over-commited themselves financially to their new stadium and the consequences of not making the Champions League would have been crippling. Henry would’ve jumped ship, Wenger might possibly have left as well and they would have sunk without a trace within a matter of 5 seasons as they sold all their best players to stave off debts and the inevitable liquidation they would’ve brought on. And then Spurs, who had been excellent under Jol all season go to West Ham needing a win to secure 4th and the entire squad gets food poisoning the night before the biggest game for years? If you’d have scripted it people would’ve laughed. So Spurs did the only sensible thing and appealed for the fixture to be moved (along with the Arsenal game). But the F.A, with Dein wearing both his Goon and his F.A hats, make sure the fixture goes ahead at the original time and Spurs lose while Arsenal win. The F.A may not have baked the lasagne but they had the option to keep the playing field level and chose not to. I fully expect smug reposnses from Gooners who will laugh at such conspiracy theories but many fans I’ve spoken to from across Europe maintian that if this happened between Milan and Inter or Barca and Madrid there would be uproar and outrage and would not have been swept under the table so easily. Sure, Spurs had chances to secure 4th spot earlier in the season. They blew them away to Sunderland and at home against West Ham, but the fact remains they went into the final day with the best chance of breaking the top 4 for a long time and then they all get food poisoning. Seems unbelievably coincidental to be just an accident.

Interestingly, since Dein quit both the F.A and Arsenal in 2007, the goons have had a lot more dodgy decision go against them at the hands of United.
Patrick Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
On a slightly different note, United’s pursuit of Berbatov was one of the most bitterly fought transfer debacles of the summer before last but if I remember correctly the paper work was not done on time yet the deal was still allowed to go through. The same happened with the Gallas/Cole switch. Nothing too odd there just that why makes rules and deadlines if teams can be allowed to ignore them so blatantly. Spurs effectively received a bribe not to complain for about the Berba deal as they did with the Keane and Arnesen tapping up incidents. Big 4 teams go about doing business any which way they like and we’ve now seen it with Man City’s ruthless pursuit of Lescott. Big clubs throwing their cash about is nothing new but there’s no point in having rules to govern these things if teams just get their way regardless. If that’s the way things are then we may as well have 2 seperate leagues with the big four having their own mini super league while the rest get cut off and languish in a lower league. Or maybe they could expand it to a European mini league with the elite from Europe’s best league. Oh wait, I think the G14 might already have proposed that…
Iain Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
So what do you want to see changed Patrick? What can be changed to avoid this happening? Are there realistic ways to make the playing field more level?

I imagine we both want the same sort of reforms / changes etc to make referees more accountable and due process to be observed at the FA.

I am all for change if it gets any sort of cheating out of the game, but I remain to be convinced that there is cheating at all.

On a side note, what is your stance on England’s world cup win in 1966? I don’t know a lot about the details, but there’s a lot of talk that it was a massive sham, with English refs for some of our games, and so on. Just curious.
Patrick Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I agree entirely about ‘66. From what I know it was not remotely conclusive whether the ball crossed the line in the final and even the red card for Rattin in the quarters was a joke (the ref said that he sent him off because he didn’t like the way he had looked at him!).

What I would like to see changed is to have consistency on the whole. If time is added for goal celebrations at Old Trafford then the same should happen at Upton Park. If Chelsea/Arsenal/United are given special dispension to extend the deadline to complete transfer deals then the same should apply to all clubs.

Likewise refs should be held more accountable for their mistakes. While human error is bound to exist, if they are found culpable on more than say three occasions over a season for terrible officiating for/against the same side then they should not be allowed to officiate on a match involving that side the following season (Webb would surely be banned an Old Trafford by now).

I seem to recall one ref having a dodgy game at Old Trafford but his decisions went predominantly against United and he has never reffed there since. That seems more a case of Sir Alex putting his foot down but I may be mistaken.

As for the Palace/Watford incidents mentioned earlier, I thought they were both outrageous, not really because of how bad the officiating was (though it was admittedly horrendous) but because of the reactions of the Bristol City and Reading players. There is no doubt at all that the City players knew that Sears had scored yet they took the goalkick and played on as if nothing had happened. That’s cheating, plain and simple. Anyone of them could have held their hands up and told the ref it was a goal and others could/should have backed him up. The same applies to the Reading players who knew they hadn’t scored but then returned to their own half to kick-off following a non-existent goal. It’s utterly disgraceful and Steve Coppell and Gary Johnson lost a huge amount of respect for not helping the refs out. Remember the respect Di Canio got when Paul Gerrard was injured? I’ve been slating refs for terrible performances but if players helped then a little more rather than trying to con them (yes you, Eduardo) then we’d have much less controversy to discuss each week.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Patrick. Talk to me about Roswell. Any ideas?
Iain Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Sorry Patrick I didn’t put my question right to you.

If 1966 was a conspiracy, how do you feel about it? Are you happy that we won the world cup? Or disappointed that we had to win by allegedly foul means?

The reason I ask is that if and when Arsenal get the rub of the green, I feel a bit dirty, but ultimately take it as a positive. (see Eduardo’s dive etc as a most recent example).

Not saying its right, just trying to understand everyone’s perspective.
Iain Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
P.S Gary Johnson was the Yeovil manager when they let Plymouth equalise after Yeovil had scored a goal by foul means (passing back to oppo keeper a bit too hard, and a bit too far away from him) so he’s a good egg in my book.
Dean Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Wow, looks like a lot has been going on on here since i last popped in. Part of me feels i should just let the argument die down now as most points have been said. No need to fuel the fire and all that…

However….

Matty Boy.

“Of course Ref’s will be swayed by the fans screaming for a penalty…. but it has nothing to do with the top 4 bias or anything.”

I respectfully disagree. You think a dodgy goal allowed or disallowed by a linesman will have nothing to do with top 4 bias? I think a ref will undoubtedly be swayed by 70,000 screaming fans rather than 10,000 at somewhere like Ewood Park?

“Ps. Dean- im not talking about Upton Park. Im talking about the added time at Old Trafford on sunday and to my mind, it was correct. I honestly dont see the problem.”

But the point is Matt, the reasons for ET at old trafford should have been the same at both Stadiums. I don’t care whether injury/extra time is added to a match, i just want the rules to be the same everywhere.

“Ps. Dean- im not talking about Upton Park. Im talking about the added time at Old Trafford on sunday and to my mind, it was correct.”

Well, it wasn’t. From Bellamy’s goal to the restart was 56 seconds. The ref said he added 30 seconds for the sub.

At Old Trafford 1min 27 secs = Owen goal
If this was at Wigan for example 1min 27 secs = Cole, no goal.

See where i’m coming from? I could write it again if you like?

Churrrrchy!!!!

“I still dont understand! Are people seriously saying that extra time shouldnt be added for a goal and the celebrations?”

Nope. Just saying that the refs should tell us what the rules are on said issue, then stick to it. If it isn’t adhered, ask them why.

“I didnt see any screaming the ref was a Bristol City fan earlier in the season against Palace, nor the ghost goal at Watford last season…….”

Dad, Dan, Dan… Do you really think a “ghost goal” would ever happen at Old Trafford in this day in age? Pur-leeeease!

The bottom line for me is this. I am actually quite content with my position as a west ham supporter. I am happy to have delusions of granduer and false optimism in pre-season. I am happy knowing that the most i could hope for in a season is a UEFA Cup spot (ideally if two of the big 4 win the cups so 9th spot will qualify!). Subconsciously, i don’t even mind the big four. Aside from Richard Key’s drivel, i like a super sunday with the “Top 4 Teams” in one day. Arsenal are on their way of this club anyway so it will be broken up soon enough. (Like Patirck pointed out, since Dein has left…coincidence?) The only thing i CAN’T FUCKING STAND, is when supports of the “so-called top 4″ continually deny again and again that they get the majority of the decisions. It is blatent and blatent can be. I just wish Man U fans would admit it, then we could all get on with our lives. But then again, it is football and i do need someone to hate, so. . .
dexylongshot Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
66
We (West Ham) scored 4, the Germans scored 2 (one a scramble). They can have the one which went over but not fully. 3-2 to England, but let’s hear it for those plucky losers.

Where have these 66 rumours of a ref conspiracy come from ??
Dean Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Iain

“If 1966 was a conspiracy, how do you feel about it? Are you happy that we won the world cup? Or disappointed that we had to win by allegedly foul means?”

It makes all the more sweet! If it were true i run around like a madmen screaming “HA HA, 2 world wars and….” and all that. I jest of course, but the thing is, i’m big enough to admit that there probably were some dodgy decisions in that game.

Matty? Churchy? See what i did there?
Patrick Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Iain, if 1996 were a conspiracy it’d make it a lesser victory in my opinion. I’ll put it this way – if we win next summer due to a penalty awarded for a blatant blatant dive by any one of our players the it won’t be as sweet as a hard earner deserved victory. Likewise if we won then found out the ref had been bought I would feel much the same.
Dan Church Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Dean, the point i was trying to make about the Palace/Watford incidents was that these kind of big decisions are not soley evident in the top 4 of the premiership, it happens everywhere, but because it is the top 4 it gets highlighted so much more.

and as for holding your hands up when your team gets a bit of luck, im quite happy to do that when it happens, ill admit we were lucky on sun, but the whole point of the article was that the top 4 and united especially have some kind of covert under cover ops thing going on to ensure that they dont drop points at home which is rubbish, yes Fergie may have some influence by demanding certain refs never ref his team again, which he has done and has happened, but if he can get away with it then all well and good. But you dont do what hes done in management without holding a little bit of sway. Im sure the likes of Wenger, Benitez, Redknapp et al all have their own grievence lists, but its not Fergies fault that he gets listened to and no one else does.
Patrick Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Not Fergie’s fault? Whose fault is it then? Is someone else talking for him and putting pre-match pressure on refs? Dan, your points about Palace and Watford were not really relevant as they were examples of total ineptitude from inexperienced refs whereas what the article was refering to was experienced refs showing no backbone when under pressure from big clubs to make decisions that might not benefit them.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 25th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Ps. I also agree with Dan Church’s point about the media. These dodgy decisions are given for varying teams week in week out. Because the top 4 do more attacking, these dodgy decisions involving the top 4 will invariably be in and around their opponents penalty area. But then the media goes into overdrive and the Sun starts talking about conspiracys and top 4 bias.

Take for example the Eduardo dive and penalty…. it was headlines for days and im sure some people were highlighting this as a big 4 bias and something the lower teams wouldnt get. This puts the seed of doubt in those football fans who believe everything they read.

The exact same week, English journeyman right back, Tony Hibbert, dived to win a penalty for Everton against Burnley. The dive was possibly worse than Eduardos but not mentioned once. Because he didnt play for the big 4 and wasnt Croatian/Brazilian.

Therefore the intense media spotlight on every decision made in the big 4 games makes the gullible public believe that theres a conspiracy. If the same media spotlight was shed on every game, most people would realise that these decisions go on in every game!
Nev Napier Says:
September 25th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I don’t read the papers, especially the red tops. I have no time for their hyperbole. I watch the games and come to my own conclusions, I don’t need some sniffling hack to tell me what to think.

The Eduardo incident was brought to a wider audience due to FIFA stepping in to add their own punishment after the match referee failed to act. I applauded this. However, I did not applaud when they retracted the punishment which they themselves had given. After feeling so strongly about the incident in the first place I wonder what moved them to change their stance….
Patrick Says:
September 25th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Good point well made Nev. Should also add that Hibbert’s dive didn’t result in a goal whereas Eduardo’s did. That might have something to do with the furore about the dive rather than his nationality. It changed a game that Celtic were not out of whereas Burnley went on to beat Everton despite the dive.
Giulio di Sagrata Says:
September 26th, 2009 at 6:58 am
Let’s think outside the box for a moment guys. Must we have the Big Four? Yes, unless Man City or Villa or someone other upstart takes over and trespasses on their territory. But. But but but … how about levelling the whole arrangement? A kind of wealth tax. A Robin Hood system, robbing the rich to feed the poor. At the end of each season the top clubs would pay a large subsidy to the bottom clubs. It would be on a sliding scale, so for instance at present the biggest subsidy would be from Chelsea to Pompey, etc. That way every summer the Pompeys could spend liberally to reinforce their squads, while the Chelseas would have to tighten their belts. Each new season would then start on a much more equal basis. Wadday’all think? It’ll never happen of course, but not a bad idea, eh?
Stevie Says:
September 26th, 2009 at 9:10 am
I don’t think that’s fair Giulio, if you stared a business called Bob’s socks which became an overnight sensation, you worked your socks off (boom boom) to get where you are today, sleepless nights, breakdowns etc… only to find out you had to give some of hard earnt earnings to Kevin the chav’s business because he’s lazy and doesn’t work half as hard as you!

Get my point? So what if Ambravich wants to waste millions on a football club. All it means is Chelsea & City have no soul, and never will have! If, and when the Villa’s and the Everton’s of this world do win something (Pompey did remember) how much more satisfying can it be!

A transfer cap would be an idea, but it has to be a global one, same as the the homegrown players rule, othrwsie not only will the Premiership suffer, so will England. Incidentally, I had a dream that England beat Sweden 2-1 in the world cup final last night, Rooney got a very scrappy winner after they equalized from the spot…
Giulio di Sagrata Says:
September 26th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Hey Stevie, I can tell you’re a man with fine moral awareness. But I wasn’t really thinking about the rights and wrongs of the Big Four chairmen who work their socks off (hmmm) to get their clubs where they are. I was thinking about us fans, we who collectively pay countless millions into the clubs’ coffers. Imagine the excitement for us of a new season when the prospects are genuinely open as to where the trophies end up. Absurdly fanciful, I know, but I also dream!
Sam Says:
September 26th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Wow you really hate the ‘top four’ dont you! With regards to this whole OTT thing – my view is that if United are behind in a game there is more chance the visiting side will try to hold onto this lead rather than push on for a second and third. Therefore, they will be eating time out of the game at every opportunity. The keeper, suddenly overcome with a serious case of OCD, will kick the mud off his both boots seventeen times before a goal kick. The outfield players will drag their feet to every set piece and subs will purposefully hide on the far side of the pitch when they know their numbers up so they milk every second out of their exit! And cramp will suddenly become fashionable again.

All in all, the time wasting is inevitable when United go behind, therefore when United need these ridiculously late goals there will be a hell of a lot of wasted time to add on.

It is not a conspiracy people. Leave that to the americans.
Giulio di Sagrata Says:
September 27th, 2009 at 7:37 am
No no Sam, you misunderstand. I don’t hate the Top Four at all. On the contrary, I support one of them. But this whole blog is called A Level Playing Field, and I was merely fantasising about a different way of achieving one.
Simon Says:
September 27th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
OK, I’ll publicise my allegiance first before going on – I’m a Liverpool fan, so have been on the right AND wrong side of a number of these so called ‘dodgy’ decisions. Now I’ll give my take on it – I think that some of them are indeed dodgy however as others have said within this very blog, they DO happen with and against the top sides just not quite as much – anyone remember Heskey’s added on time equaliser at the Bridge two seasons ago to virtually destroy Chelsea’s Title Charge? And what about Dossena’s fourth goal at Old Trafford in our humiliation of the Stretford darlings last season? What of the Penalty Charlton got v Liverpool for handball OUTSIDE the box in February 2006 or the one that Reading got for the SAME reason in December 2007; Then there’s the penalty that Aston Villa got at Anfield in August 2009 this season and the one we were refused? What about the ridiculous dive that earned Chelsea a penalty at Anfield in August 2007 from Malouda or the denial of a blatant penalty to us at White Hart Lane in August this season when Voronin was rugby tackled;

Then there’s the most blatant of the lot by a loooong shot – Tiago’s CLEAR handball at the Kop end of Anfield on January 1st 2005 when Chelsea were SLAUGHTERED, we could not score, said hand ball happened, Riley put his whistle to his lips for a pen’ and? Removed it – refused to explain why and Chelsea went on to win 0 – 1 with a deflected shot in a bigger heist than the Great Train Robbery (bet they didn’t enjoy being on the end of Lil’ Luis’ ‘ghost’ goal in the Champions League Semi Final that year though later did they? Revenge WAS sweet) I’ve ALWAYS thought there was something VERY dodgy about that decision in particular though above all others I’ll mention here – it was just TO blatant a pen’ to ignore – but Riley did – Why? And why have Liverpool had NO league penalties at the Bridge since 2001? Despite several VERY good calls and yet Chelsea have had TWO at Anfield including one for a pathetic dive I wonder?; Re United though, Surely if the games THAT biased there would have been NO added time to stop the media darlings being humiliated in March although A:) They deserved it and B:) the English game NEEDED something like that to happen, to show it can.

However, I remember back in the 70’s and 80’s (and it’ll probably happen again soon if our attack takes us where it might this season) where we won everything and? We received exactly the same complaints and even suggestions that we should start whole seasons with points handicaps due to biased referees who stopped anyone else winning ever. What was ignored there though and is ignored here is the fact that the Top sides (and whoever becomes champions and it WON’T always be United – their empire WILL collapse just as ours did – Who will replace Fergie?) always spend so much time in their foes penalty area and cause such chaos amongst their defences whilst attacking and have so much of the ball that A:) decisions against them are a surprise purely because it means the other side have managed to attack them/get the ball – same as defeats for them and B:) The other side are worn down so much that they make mistakes and thus penalties/cards etc inevitable – it’s called a pressing game and the champions of England have on and off used it for at least the last 4 decades or so in one form or another – it just means penning the other side into their own half through either physical pressing, ball possession or both and then wearing them down until they concede – unfortunately for those who hate them – the Top 4 are by far the best English exponents of this art – hence the alleged bias (although given what happened at Wigan yesterday to Chelsea it CAN be turned back on them by a good manager/tactician like Martinez)

Although refs clearly ARE afraid of the Big 4 and their influence etc – They CAN and DO rule against them as well – as shown when Chelsea conceded a penalty yesterday? When Liverpool got red cards AGAINST United in 2 games last year AND a penalty at Old Trafford and when Rooney and Scholes were both sent off against Fulham last term, United conceded a penalty and lost 2 – 0 (Murphy!! Again – His first Home goal against them actually, the other 3 winners were all at Old Trafford). On some other notes Dexylongshot I don’t think even Fergie would be so stupid as to physically attack a spectator or someone who annoyed him – what if they hit back? And ever since being attacked by a tramp a few years back on the train I think some of Fergie’s temper and fire has died down a little for some reason; Giulio di Sagrata, there WAS a money sharing arrangement in the English top league once…….for over a hundred years – it was called gate sharing whereby visiting sides took at least half of the money earned on the gates by the Home teams during matches in an equal split – The gradual scaling down and then demise of that arrangement since 1985 and the absolute determination of the big sides in England to hoard any and ALL mega earnings from football for themselves is what’s led to the current ridiculous imbalance (and yes it IS ridiculous in my view, despite me being on the right side of the Top 4 divide in terms of how well LFC do).

Dan Church, Wenger, Benitez et al DO have grievance lists of their own – particularly our own Rafa’ and ever since his so called ‘rant’ last season (which was no different than an absolute beauty from Fergie back in 1988 when he moaned about being done by referees at Anfield and thus started his own prolonged campaign of intimidation and that’s what it is – designed entirely to ensure that refs work to his and Uniteds advantage repeatedly when needed) I think we’ve started to get the rub of the green from a LOT of decisions and refs have treated us a LOT fairer than they used to so maybe shouting ala Fergie DOES work – I just think the FA don’t have the guts to have a public battle with a/the big club(s) over such influence as A:) it’s to much like hard work and B:) said clubs provide the bulk of the England team and thus could make life VERY difficult for the FA if they so wished.

Anyway, I think that the Big 4 DO benefit from such decisions partly due to attacking non-stop in games and partly due to influencing/shouting at ref’s (and I’m not going to apologise as a LFC fan because I’ve seen FAR to many marginal decisions go against us and blatant ones against United so its about time we fought fire with fire by replying in kind) I think that the reason United do get so much more (at present NOT forever) is because they’ve done it for longer although I do think Liverpool will catch up with them in that respect soon as WE once had the reputation of biggest ref influencers in England and the way our managers moaned about decisions recently, I think we might be getting said rep’ and the benefits it brings back again so I’ll watch for more such decisions in coming games. Chelsea and Arsenal aren’t far behind LFC and Man United either in terms of benefitting from refereeing largesse (look at the ridiculous way NO decisions went against Chelsea at the Bridge for 4 years almost so helping them establish that ridiculous record of theirs) so yes there IS a clear bias of sorts.

Clearly, United RELY on these decisions far more than other teams – look how inept they can be often in Europe where teams don’t give the ball back easily and they don’t benefit from cheap corners, pens or free kicks from friendly ref’s – the same is true in some big 4 clashes and WHEN that happens, they look quite an ordinary side – not great at all – In fact I’d go as far as saying they often RELY on such decisions to help win titles. I actually think it’s not so much the penalties they get as the extra time, cheap corners and incorrect free kicks to help build up pressure on ‘park the bus’ defences that helps them win titles as such teams invariably A:) can’t stand sustained periods of such pressure and B:) can’t attack United in turn like Top 4/European sides can;

Anyway, I’ll conclude by saying Basically – The main way to win the English league is to beat ALL (or as many as you can) of the smaller sides home and away whilst getting what you can from clashes with your contemporaries – look at United whose ‘Big 4′ clashes record last season (18 points possible – I think they got what? 5 to Liverpool’s 14) was abysmal but there record against the other sides (from which 95 or so points is available thus negating the need to batter the Top 4 regularly) was almost immaculate – hence they won the title by a one win and a draw margin of four points I think from us – I think Rafa’s learnt his lesson in that this year though as this season; like Fergie, he’s started pressing for everything he can get against the smaller sides and like Fergie he’s ensured we attack them from the start home and away as they can’t cope most of the time – if he carries on like this and we carry on vaporising such sides as we have Burnley, Stoke and especially Hull yesterday – I think THIS time, our Big 4 clashes record won’t matter so much – I DO think the media don’t like Rafa’ though as before last year ALL they did was moan about his record v the Top 4 and then? When we topped THAT table by a distance they harped on about how ’smaller’ sides had cost us the title by stifling us for draws, we can’t win………..

Finally, regarding United, I wonder where they’d have been since 1993 IF they didn’t get 8 minutes of added on time against Sheffield Wednesday to start off the REAL list of decisions that have affected titles in their favour (and it was NOT in 1994) – that was just the tip of the iceberg as far as WE were concerned against them- the next season LFC were given a penalty at Old Trafford and then denied it by the ref’ and linesman before it was taking, United were given a joke of a penalty in Cantona’s comeback game (after the karate kick) in 1995 and an IDENTICAL penalty was refused Liverpool at Anfield by Graham Poll in 2003 (when Pongolle was FLATTENED by Ferdinand AND Howard the United keeper – Also there have been non-existent free kicks by them to beat us 1 – 0 when they should have lost (Anfield March 2007 where we battered them and Old Trafford January 2006 when we dominated but they won both with goals from Ferdinand and O’Shea I believe) and cheap/wrong corners AND free kicks given to them as well (as they were in September 2004 with Silvestre scoring from both) and to top it all off – Mike Rileys finest hour when in April 2003 he sent off Sami Hyppia for his first tackle at Old Trafford and gave United TWO penalties to help win 4 – 0 as well as Steve Bennett’s party piece when he sent off Mascherano for asking ”what’s happening/what’s wrong” at Old Trafford in a display Joe Stalin would have been proud of in March 2008.

When you add the joke of a dive for a penalty v Bolton by Ronaldo and the even more ridiculous penalty they ‘earnt’ against Spurs last season, Wes Brown being allowed to virtually knock out Blackburn’s keeper while scoring at Ewood Park but the goal standing, the apparently deliberate decision by the linesman to disallow Mendes shot from the halfway line at Old Trafford in January 2005 AND Rooney’s cheating dive to end Arsenal’s unbeaten run in October 2004 as well as his apparent invulnerability to being sent off or cautioned for swearing in refs faces then it’s clear that while there IS indeed a bias to big clubs from refs in the English league – There’s only one club that NEED it to be systematic like a crutch – else they’d be exposed for what they are (re their Liverpool and Barcelona matches last season) which is a flat track bully who can be harried into mistakes as much as any other team. We couldn’t POSSIBLY have that with Fergie on the touchline for them though could we?………………………………..
Simon Says:
September 27th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Incidentally; I DO think United recieve assistance to truly obscene levels of benefit and help in the league from such ‘decisions’/’Friendly refs’ as those being argued over here; In case you hadn’t guessed from my other post; And yes it IS so blatant but what can be done about it? And I mean in ALL clubs cases but ESPECIALLY United’s. It’s so blatant and clear that they benefit from such decisions AND that the odds are so skewed in their favour due to respect/fear/intimidation of referees over the years (since 1993 funnily enough it hardly happened with them before then, wonder wh…..ah yes, the Premier League was established then wasn’t it? I see it all now) but it’s like both the FA and the PGMOB (Professional Game Match Officials Board – the REAL power behind referees in the Premier League) either don’t want to sort the problem out as they’re afraid of United or (more likely) that in conjunction with United they’re working to some pre-arranged plan (ala Luciano Moggi in Serie A until he was caught) and couldn’t care less what the fans/world at large think so effectively they’re sticking two fingers up at them by arrogantly ignoring everyone and their complaints about United as they do their utmost to remove any element of ‘competition’ in the game; Genuine competition to their aims is NOT what United want at all is it?. How to change all this? Who knows, maybe more Rafa style rants will work but who would dare take on the establishment as Rafa’ did? One thing’s for sure – expect United to keep winning trophies as long as this biased flow of decisions continues – It’s a bit hard NOT to win isn’t it? Or at least it is when the referees and authorities continue to give you a handy lift to the finishing line season in, season out.

I often wonder how well Ferguson’s United would do without this assistance as I mentioned above (to get the answer look at the years 1987 – 1992 in the Fergie reign at OT – they weren’t that impressive no?) and I think the answer is they’d be nothing LIKE as good as they are seen to be now but since they rely on such decisions so much – it will be a cold day in hell before THEY stop them happening and no-one else has the guts to take them on enough to stop it. I think that makes them little more than cowards and they know it – why else would they be so defensive whenever tackled about it? (Look at Fergies reaction to Rafa’s rant if you don’t believe me – he didn’t know WHAT to say and then A:) denied it and B:) TRIED (and failed miserably) to mock Rafa’ – He ended up looking the pathetic old man he can be now at times in the process; Still one day, there WILL be a reckoning for United, when Fergies goes – god will they have trouble then because then they WILL be exposed for what they are and when they are, you can kiss goodbye to United’s artificially assisted and manufactured so called ‘dominance’ of the game – it will be gone within a heartbeat – just like Fergie and his influence – At present, it’s clear that the sooner that day comes, the better for English football as a whole and it really CAN’T come quick enough can it?…………………
Patrick Says:
September 27th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Sam, I don’t hate the top 4. I hate the way decisions always go their way. All clubs benefit from poor officiating from time to time but with the top 4 and particularly United it is season after season, numerous times.
dexylongshot Says:
September 27th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Effing Nora, well done chaps for getting really getting involved in this blog, I can’t honestly think of a more hottly disputed debate, there are some excellent opinions on your here, there would be no Den without you lot (wipes a moist tear from under the shades).

Keep it up

Dexy
Darren Says:
September 27th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
this blog is now our record blog for words and comments.

Great work Patrick for raising such debate! Well done to all involved.

Patrick, so what did u make of the Cech sending off then?
Matt Quinn Says:
September 28th, 2009 at 10:58 am
And the dodgy last minute penalty that Blackburn were awarded in the last few mins against Villa this weekend? Was it not dangerous play by Di Santo and Dunne was just protecting his face???

Can you imagine the uproar from these boards if Man Utd had been awarded the same penalty with 3mins of the game to go with a match tied at 1-1? Imagine the media spotlight!!! Imagine the debate!!! I guess noone really cares when a controversial decision happens outside the top 4 tho!!!

Or is it that Di Santo actually still plays for Chelsea?? Hence the bias??
Matt Quinn Says:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
God! Simon! I finally got round to reading your comments about United. You dont half fit snuggly into the Liverpudlian stereotype! Oh woe is the scousers! Hard done by! United getting all the breaks! Load of rubbish tho, really.

I think you will find that most of the country think the same about your lot. If Stevie G ever gos to ground… all he has to do is look at a ref to get a free-kick or penalty.

You also mention the Villa game this year, when Villa were given a “dodgy penalty”. I think it was possibly THE most clear cut, stone-wall penalty ive ever seen. Even a one-eyed ref in front of the Kop had to give the decision…. but i suppose that you failed to see the incident in this light as the foul was committed by Stevie G. God! Even Rafa admitted it was a blatant penalty… so, in light of this, i have to ignore your ramblings and “evidence” of United bias.

Ps. You also fail to mention the Cantona ban, the Ferdinand ban etc…. examples of when decisions went against United.
Matt Quinn Says:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Ps. Simon- remember this game???

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article5084632.ece

I particularly like the quote about how Liverpool’s late penalty against Atletico “proved to be a perpetuation of two Merseyside myths: the dubious late penalty at the Kop End….”
Matt Quinn Says:
September 28th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Or do you remember this, Simon?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-489051/Clattenburg-given-time-poor-officiating-following-Merseyside-derby-fiasco.html

Mark Clatternburg given a one match ban for poor performance after sending off 2 Everton players and giving 2 penalties to Liverpool in Merseyside derby
Patrick Says:
September 28th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Alright Darren, I think that the Cech sending off was pretty clear cut. His left boot caught Rodellega’s right boot fairly full on and he would’ve scored had he not been brought down so I’d say the ref had little choice. There weren’t any huge complaints from the Chelsea players and for me that is an indicator that it was a fairly easy decision for the ref to make. I was really surprised how well Wigan played and it’s good to see them finally get a result against one of the Big 4. I think Martinez could be crafting a decent side. As for Chelsea, I’d say that’s a minor blip but next weekend is going to be a tough one.

Matt, regarding di Santo and Dunne, I thought that was a pretty difficult one to give. On the one hand the ball has travelled almost no distance and he couldn’t exactly move his hands out of the way, but on the other hand you could argue his hands shouldn’t have been up that high in the first place. There are arguments both ways and if it hadn’t been given there would’ve been questions asked just as there are since it was given. As for dangerous play, yeah, that’s another element that could be argued. I think di Santo is entitled to go for the overhead kick as he clearly controlled the ball with that in mind and Dunne is moving towards him rather than the other way round. However, you can’t really say there’s a huge amount of bias involved as it there are definitely arguments for an against giving it rather than it being a clearly terribly decision. Don’t forget the ref had previously sent off Grella so it’s not like he was favouring Blackburn in any way.
jimmythegent Says:
September 28th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Agree withe Dunne incident, it was a very difficult decision to make for the ref. City back on the box tonight against Dexy’s Hammers, sorry Dexy, 2-0 to the Blues and hopefully, another game full of incident. West Ham could be in trouble if they don’t pick up some points soon.

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